Daughter too modest?

[Dutchmamma]

Let me start by saying that I love Norway and that I enjoy living here. The thing I struggle with mostly I the bluntness/impoliteness of the people in public. I know this is just a cultural thing and that norwegians are not really like this.

Now I am experiencing the same with my nearly 3 year old daughter. I nearly regret, for example that I taught her that she always has to wait for her turn when standing in a line for a slide or something else. Most norwegian children go right in front of her/ push her aside. Parents just stand there an watch. This has not just happened on an isolated occasion, but many, many times.

 

Is it just me being sensitive or are you guys experiencing the same?

 

Now I am slowly learning my daughter to stand her ground, but it`s hard to teach the line between being rude/disrespectfull and just demanding what is yours, if you understand what I mean.

[Anonym bruker]

They get it off their parents probably, have you ever tried getting off a train in oslo? The people who want to get on just push their way on instead of standing aside to let the people off'!

 

[Athravil]

I quite understand what you mean. I strongly believe that it is customary to wait in line in Norway and not push people in front of you away. When it comes to children I am not that experienced as I am expecting my first. It may be that people are more relaxed and expect the children to learn by experience etc. It may also be because parents does not want to interfere in the childrens play and does not notice that more modest/polite children are pushed away/excluded from playing.

I am not sure if your child goes to kindergarten?

Personally I believe I missed out on learning to "stand my ground" and social interaction between children by not going to kindergarten. I did have siblings and neighbouring children, but we were all "friends" because we were told to be so, and told to spend time together playing. We thereby did not learn to make new friends, letting newcomers into our group or how to behave when several wanted to play with the same thing. I believe I could have learned more about such things in kindergarten.

 

It may be good for you and your daughter if she attended kindergarten or a playgroup on regular basis, both to make her more independent stronger, but also for her to learn more about the Norwegian dos and don'ts.

[Anonym bruker]

Hier ook een Nederlander

 

What I have noticed is that Norwegians don't expect much politeness from their children. If you ask a child a question and they don't answer then it is fine. I was shocked at this. I was brought up that a child has to answer when as adult speaks to them! And they don't have to say hello or goodbye if they don't want to. I guess the same counts for standing in line and waiting for your turn. They don't have high standards for what they expect from their children when it comes to politeness. And I know that English people feel the same way about Dutch children who don't learn how to say please and thank you when they ask for something. It's a cultural thing, but it's still difficult when you were raised in another culture. I think that Norwegian children are reared very very freely, the 60's philosophy is very strong here, only love and no discipline.

[Anonym bruker]

Aktually, I don't see why children should automaticly answer an adult? It is true that children in Norway are brought up with more love than discipline, and to me discipline,when it comes to children, has a negative sound. I think more of well trained dogs when I hear the word...

 

I belive children should be brought up with love and respect. The child should be shown respect for it's person but also be taught to show respect to others. More tricky than discipline as respect hardly follows rules and a lot of does and don'ts. Still, a child need firm boundaries to know where it stands and to develop personal boundaries of it's own

 

That said, there are a lot of parents in Norway that, unfortunatly, still cling to free upraising (is that a word in English??) making their kids spoiled little brats...

[partyoffive]

'Dutchmamma'

 

I hope that you are wrong w/your description of Norwegian children (and their parents according to 'anonym'). I am norwegian, my husband is Irish, and we live in USA. I have not lived in Norway w.children yet, but we are moving there soon. We do however visit Norway all the time and have cousines there and have definetly been to the playground there.

 

It was not like that in Norway when I grew up, that is for sure. Granted I am in my early 30's and things change in every country and every culture. But we were definetly raised to answer adults politely and say 'please and thank you'. As far as the playground behaviour w/waiting your turn etc., I don't think for a moment that is Norwegian kids, but kids everywhere. Kids skip the lines and kids gets pushed in the playground in any country. We have been in playgrounds in Norway, in Ireland and in USA and this happens everywhere. I had the same problem as you with my oldest daughter. She got pushed out of the way all the time. Kids skipped in front of her all the time. And she came running to me crying. She did not stand up for herself. So I had to teach her to stand her ground without being a bully. Then my second daughter came around, and I never had to address this with her. Sometimes it could be a problem w/the oldest child? They don't have a sibling to teach them the ropes at the playground? Could be a coincidence, but several of my girlfriends have also experienced this problem w/the first child, and not the second/third.. Could also just be personality of course, kids are all different. BUT, kids will be kids in any playground!

 

I spent 4 years in Holland for College. And my experience w/the Dutch is that they are in fact very hospitable, service minded and friendly people. But if you want to discuss bluntness...I'd say the Dutch can be loud and very blunt. i guess sometimes this can be preceived as impolite as well. It all depends on your preceptions I guess. Have you lived in Holland w/kids as well? Just wondering if it really is so different. Sometimes I experience things here in USA that makes me say "this would never happen in Norway etc." But this is not always true....? Maybe..?

 

And to 'Anonym' - have you every tried to get off the train in Holland, where 90% of the 15 mill. + population of a tiny country uses public transportation daily????

Or here is one for you, New York city - good luck there. London....this goes on. For God's sake, getting off/on the train is the same in any big city. Particularly if you are w/stroller/kids.

 

I know it is easy to 'pick' on things when you live in a foregin country, I do it all the time, but really these things happens everywhere.

[Dutchmamma]

Hi Florida Mor!

 

I wasn`t trying to pick on Norway! As I said I love the country and was trying to describe a difference I noticed as careful as possible. And I agree with you, as a dutch person I thought I had seen all the bluntness and impoliteness in the world, because the dutch can be both. I can name a lot of `ulempers` from The Netherlands.

 

There are just some things that are very hard for me to understand here: while pregnant going to swim-training for pregnant women for

example,there would hardly be any talking in the change-rooms. Complete silence time after time that would make me feel veeeeery uncomfortable.....but I do not think it bothered the other women. It`s all a matter of perception as you say.

 

But it`s good to hear from you that you had the same problem with your first daughter being too modest and that there is hope for the second one (now 3 months old!).... :-)

 

I have noticed some difference between general kids behaviour between Norway and Holland, but on the other hand: in most dutch playgrounds you have to dig your way through dog-shit! Not ideal either!

 

I did not mean for this thread to end in a `mud-thowing` one, like so many other threads in here.

 

[partyoffive]

Not at all - no 'mud-throwing' here. And as I said, I hope you are wrong - you might not be. In wich case I am in for a surprise when I return to Norway in just a couple of weeks w/husband and kids after being gone for 14 years!

 

After 4 years in Holland, and 9 years in USA I have changed a lot and might not be very 'typical Norwegian' anymore. I agree with you in that Norwegians are not always very outgoing or even friendly towards new people like the Dutch are. But when you get to know them and you make Norwegian friend, you have a friend for life. See, I would have been chatting away in the changing room after the swimming lesson and they would all thing I was strange, but that is OK. These are all just interesting observations of cultural differences that we are privelidge to experience since we are living in foregin countries. We can only use it to our benefit.

 

Good luck with everything!

[Krinolina]

 

Hi everybody!

 

This is a very interesting debate. I'm Norwegian and my daughter is now 4 years old, and we are constantly working on her politeness skills. My husband is Dutch and we have found that our upbringings were similarly strict. So I don't know if it's purely a question of cultural background. I think your own background and values are the most important factors. In many ways I think parents are 'embarrassed' to intervene in a public setting with people present that they don't know; having to raise their voice or give their children clear messages. And here I think Norwegians are less 'experienced' than people from abroad who are used of relating to larger groups of people all the time? Maybe?

So in other words - maybe the impoliteness among children is a result of the parents being too insecure to intervene?!?

 

My daughter is learning to stand in line and ask politely in the kinder garden. But maybe the rules they have there vanish when they leave the premises? Parents need to follow this up at home!

 

I have lived in England and travelled a lot (also in Holland, of course), but I can't see that there is much 'politeness differences' among the children. But I strongly feel that parents everywhere are too much focused on themselves than giving their children clear guidelines.

 

An example: I was showering after a work out at my local gym and two children (boy and girl around 7 y.o.) came inside the shower and started staring at me. Their mother was chatting away in the wardrobe with her work out friend and talking about parties and hangovers... It's not the nudity I have a problem with, but parents who don't control their children. I asked the children as they stood there: was this interesting?, and then they ran out, ha, ha.

 

Would this have happened in your countries?

 

[Sinah]

Yes, cultures are different, and compared to, f.ex. the British, Norwegians are impolite! I'm Norwegian myself and lived in Britain a few years ago. Went home on holidays after a couple of months, and didn't think much about the differences then, but when I moved back after 6 months, I was shocked by how rude Norwegians were. Nobody talks to you unless they know you (shyness!), shop assistants don't say hello, not to mention queueing...

However after a few weeks, I had probably reverted to "the Norwegian ways" myself, and thought no more of it :0)

But as somebody mentioned, we are quite nice once you get to know us! I find that the English politeness can be very superficial, at times, whereas Norwegians don't really mean to be rude, they just don't know any better... ;0)

[m den lille]

I am Norwegian, but my husband is British, and he is struggling a lot getting to terms with my people's impoliteness (has lived here about a year + previous visits). Someone said that they thought Norwegians were just not used to relating to big crowds, and I believe this to be true. We come from a culture where your neighbour could live miles from you! We don't mean anything by it, but in the eyes of other nationalities we are very rude. When I lived in England I had to change and say my thank yous, sorrys, my pardons instead of our lovely "WHAT?" etc. It was a shock to me to come home to Norway and see the rudeness (hadn't been aware of it before).

 

But I think the children of today are a lot "ruder" than what previous generations have been. I was taught to respect adults, to be polite, to show consideration to other people, elders etc. Like someome said - the parents of today (read: us...) have to extend the kindergarten's teaching to their homes as well - no use if the kindergarten gives the children politeness and manners if the parents don't take this home - AND practise it themselves. The standing your ground vs. being disrespectful/rude can be a thin line, but I will have to try to teach this to my children and hope she isn't going to have "norwegian manners"...

[Dutchmamma]

Thanks everybody for their input! What a nice and decent discussion this is. I have just gotten to know that we`ll move back to Holland in the summer, so I will find out what kids are like over there these days.

Maybe I will report back in here when it turns out my impression of norwegian children was wrong!

 

After 7 years in Norway I am quite sure I will miss a lot of things, but as I have actually started to like `Senkveld`on Friday nights it is time to get out of here fast..... :-)

 

If there are any norwegian speaking people in the Den Bosch area that would like to get in touch, let me know. I would love to be able to speak norsk every now and then....

 

 

[Matpat]

I agree with you Dutchmamma. So many wonderful things about living here, and the children are brought up very freely, which can be good. However, I think the children ARE rude. As other people have commented, they don't have to answer adults if they don't want to, they show little respect for others and they often don't say please and thank you. My son also waits patiently in queues, and both children AND adults push past him, which really upsets me.

 

I also find it hard that it is not normal to strike up converstaions with strangers. The only people I used to chat to at playgrounds when I was at home with my kids were other foreigners!

 

As someone else said, however, once you are friends with someone from Norway, they are a loyal, life-long friend, but it is hard to get to know people.

 

I am from Australia and really miss the openness there (and the weather), but I don't miss the right wing government or the working hours!

[mamamaria]

Hi Dutchmamma, here's another dutch mamma ;-))

 

I've experienced the same with our daugther... the "stand in line and wait for your turn"-thing. After a while we saw clearly that this didn't really work cause it never was her turn because other kids would go in front of her, and she didn't dare to say something:-((

We had to teach her how to be a bit tougher... unfortunately. Unbelievable that this is actually neccesary :-(

But, I've no idea if this is just a norwegian thing, or if it's the new generation maybe?

We learned to respect our parents and elder people... what happened to that?

I've lived in Norway for 12 years now, so I can't really judge, cause I have no idea how kids in f.eks. the Netherlands are... it could be just the same for all I know?

 

[starfire]

Hi Dutchmamma,

I might bring up things that others already has mentioned, because I haven't read through the whole thread... kind of long.

I apologize for that in advance.

 

I'm Norwegian, and I have worked with children for years, some in Norway, but mostly in the US, where children are raised to be polite to grown-ups and other kids. Waiting your turn is a given, and parents/nannies pay attention to the kids on the playground.

Unlike parents in Norway, who for some strange reason let their kids push other kids away in order to get ahead in line.

 

It's really sad, because these kids grow up thinking this is this is fine.

It's ok to discipline children, teaching them right from wrong and setting boundaries. But it's like (some)_ parents in Norway has taken everything to the extreme, going from physically punishing their kids to not giving them consequences at all.

 

As far as the thing with kids pushing your daughter away/going to the front of the line... I think that has very much to do with WHERE in Norway you live.

 

Where I live, even grown ups do it. (live down south, but was born up north)

In line at the grocery store, I often experience that someone try to cut in line, and I very clearly (and loudly) tell them I am in this line, so please do not cut in front of me.

 

Please, teach your daughter to wait her turn and to be polite.

She will thank you for it later in life, when she realize her mother was smart to teach her politeness, because she will need it.

Norwegians some times just need to be reminded that kids still need guidance, even though it's not ok anylonger to hit the kids.

 

It's like we went to very strict to no boundaries, no consequences, no nothing...

 

And tell the parents at the playground.

Because most likely, none of the parents has even considered that their kids are being rude, impolite and bratty.

 

That's how I see it, anyways.